Subject: Can't get interfaces????

From: Tim Gross <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 11:17:57 -0400

OK after having trouble seeing my redhat 6.2 system in chooser on mac.
I wiped my system clean and reinstalled 6.2.
Well I keep getting the same message in /var/log/messages

atalkd: socket: Invalid argument
atalkd: socket: Invalid argument
atalkd: atalkd: can't get interfaces, exiting.
atalk: atalkd startup failed
atalk: papd startup succeeded
papd[852]: restart 91.4b2+asun2.1.3)
atalk: afpd startup succeeded
afpd[861]: main: atp_open:Invalid argument
afpd[861]: ASIP started on 127.0.0.1:548(0) (1.4b2+asun2.1.3)

All i have in atalkd.conf is:
etho -zone "csg"

Do I need something else? Does it not like my eth card? (thought I
remember reading something about this?)
________________________________________________
Tim Gross                   [email-masked]
National High Magnetic Field Laboratory
http://www.magnet.fsu.edu

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From: "Daniel E. Lautenschleger" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 10:46:35 -0500 (CDT)

Did you try inserting the following into /etc/conf.modules?:

net-pf-5 appletalk

Daniel E. Lautenschleger
University of Wisconsin
R.M. Bock Laboratories
Network Administrator and Computer Support
[email-masked]
608.262.3403

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From: andrew morgan <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:47:53 -0700 (PDT)

> remember reading something about this?)

Add:

alias net-pf-5 appletalk

to /etc/conf.modules and restart netatalk.

	Andy

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From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 08:55:31 -0700

> I wiped my system clean and reinstalled 6.2.

Wasn't necessary.

> Well I keep getting the same message in /var/log/messages

Yeah, this is a known issue with RedHat 6.2, since the boneheads at RedHat
felt it necessary to remove autoloading of the appletalk module as of 6.2
(after all, saving these few bytes of extra configuration from a text file
makes all the difference).

Here's how to fix it:

:From an earlier post addressing the RedHat 6.2 problem:

: I'm assuming that you get errors when atalkd starts as well.  With RedHat
: 6.2, you need to add "alias net-pf-5 appletalk" to your /etc/conf.modules
: file.

I'm going to add this information to my .sig.

Harry

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From: Stefan Jugelt <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:54:37 +0200 (MEST)

> All i have in atalkd.conf is:
  ^^^^
That's the problem. I think you want to write for your firts ethernet-card
eth0, not etho.

-- 
Sent through GMX FreeMail - http://www.gmx.net

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From: Tom Fitzgerald <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 15:56:37 -0400

> makes all the difference).

The Redhat people did exactly the right thing.  The two boneheaded moves
were:

1) Enabling it by default in all versions prior to 6.2, and
2) Not publicizing it adequately in the release notes when they removed it.

Redhat has had a chronic problem of enabling every silly service and
driver that can possibly be enabled.  This has caused waves of security
problems in every release, since a hole in the most insignificant package
affects everyone who hasn't explicitly turned it off (which nobody does).

It's actually very good that they're not enabling so many services by
default.  This can only help the security of internet-accessible Linux
systems, which is right now terrible.

Most users don't use or need the Appletalk protocol, so it shouldn't be
there.  The same is true of dozens of other packages that one can only
hope are also being disabled (which you won't notice since you don't use
them).  Redhat enabled them so users wouldn't need to read docs to figure
out how to turn them on, so Redhat could claim that Linux is as admin-
friendly as Windows.  Instead, it's like Windows because it's full of
security problems.  The whole idea was flawed.

That being said, the removal should have been prominent in the release
notes.

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From: andrew morgan <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:52:16 -0700 (PDT)

> security problems.  The whole idea was flawed.

You're missing a small point though.  Appletalk is not a "service" that is
running all the time, and the appletalk kernel module is not loaded all
the time.  They broke the kernel so that it won't *auto-load* the
appletalk kernel module when it is needed by netatalk.  Imagine if they
did the same thing to IP...  So every user has to explicity say "I want to
load the NET4 services" before they fire up their web browser?

We are not talking about running the netatalk servers by default.  That is
an entirely different situation, and I totally agree that excess services
should be disabled by default.

	Andy

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From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 13:57:49 -0700

> That being said, the removal should have been prominent in the release

Removal, additions, or ANY sort of changes should be explained clearly in
release notes - after all, that is WHY they are release notes.

Mandrake is equally, if not more so, guilty of the same, as they used to
enable and disable features in their kernels, WITHOUT ANY notice, often
resulting devices no longer working after a 'recommended' upgrade.

Is there any hope for this to change, or will RH/MDK Linux, by virtue of
such undocumented behavior, remain as newbie-hostile as it is?

Harry
-- 
CAN'T SEE MAC IN CHOOSER UNDER RedHat 6.2: If you get errors starting
AppleTalk under RedHat 6.2 and Mandrake 7.1, you need to manually add "alias
net-pf-5 appletalk" to your /etc/conf.modules file.

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From: Tom Fitzgerald <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 17:50:25 -0400

I should put a big IMHO at the beginning of all this...

> the time.

But isn't it loaded automatically if the kernel receives Appletalk
traffic?  If so, then there's still the case where software will run that
the computer's owner isn't aware of.  Flaws in the appletalk module can
make the system vulnerable to attack.  This isn't implausible - Linux
used to have bugs in its IP fragmentation code that made it possible to
panic the system from outside.

(I don't know how Linux loads modules... if this isn't possible, and the
module can only load as the result of a local program action, then you're
right.  I still think Redhat is doing the right thing by not enabling
tons of stuff automatically, even stuff they enabled in past versions, but
in this case there was no benefit to disabling it.)

> They broke the kernel so that it won't *auto-load* the

That's an unfair comparison - 99% of Linux users use IP, maybe 2% use
Appletalk (probably less).  Enabling features by default that are wanted
by only a tiny minority of users causes bloat, mysterious side effects,
and security bugs.  It's the "Microsoft Office" approach to software
design.

I'll happily respond to other e-mail about this person-to-person, but I
won't be cc'ing the list.

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From: andrew morgan <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 14:57:56 -0700 (PDT)

> in this case there was no benefit to disabling it.)

Yes, that is the difference.  Appletalk is only loaded when a local
program tries to use that address family.  I would be very worried if it
were triggered by incoming packets!  :)

	Andy

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From: Dejan Muhamedagic <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 23:26:29 +0200

Hello,

I couldn't agree more about not turning on every possible service.
And about how bloated redhat and suse became.

However, in this case it is different, because placing an alias in
conf.modules doesn't necessarily mean that appletalk support is
going to be loaded.  Even then, the module itself can't provide a
service---it is the userland atalkd/afpd/papd that offers a
service.

At risk of being too hard on new users-admins: it seems that
nobody cares to read the documentation.  That makes the "Release
notes" obsolete here.

Anyway, it shouldn't be too difficult to put together a small
procedure to check the Appletalk kernel support availability and
to stick it in a Makefile for "make install", or in a rc script.
However, this should be done for all supported platforms and not
only for redhat/linux.

Best regards,

Dejan

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From: Tim Gross <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 23:17:54 -0400

Ok added that wonderous line "alias net-pf-5 appletalk".
Shutdown the system.  Still nothing in the Mac's chooser.

Harry Zink/Netatalk List wrote:Is there any hope for this to change, or will
RH/MDK Linux, by virtue of

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From: andrew morgan <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 20:29:52 -0700 (PDT)

> Shutdown the system.  Still nothing in the Mac's chooser.

What do you see in /var/log/messages about atalkd's startup?

After netatalk is running, what do you see when you type 'lsmod'?

Does the command 'nbplkup' return anything?

	Andy

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From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2000 21:18:19 -0700

> Shutdown the system.  Still nothing in the Mac's chooser.

Big question: can you see ANYTHING on the network? If you don't, do you have
your NIC configured correctly? Is it a NIC that supports some of the stuff
netatalk needs (I think multicasting).

Do an ifconfig and show us the output.

Harry

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From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2000 09:55:34 -0700

> And about how bloated redhat and suse became.

IMO, there is nothing wrong about having every conceivable service AVAILABLE
in the form of modules that can be loaded dynamically - that was the whole
point of having modules in the first place.

Small kernel - lots of modules.

> nobody cares to read the documentation.  That makes the "Release

Not at all, since there are still plenty around that DO read the release
notes, or at least try to find what has changed (the important stuff, stuff
that affects our operation of boxes).

Still, if release notes are not present, or inaccurate, it kinda defeats the
whole RTFM argument anyways...

> to stick it in a Makefile for "make install", or in a rc script.

Actually, better would be a kernel utility, not dissimilar to ntsysv, that
allows one to see all available modules, and add/delete appropriate modules
being loaded in the conf.modules file.

I see no reason to turn on/off the actual modules, since, again, the point
of modules is that they can be loaded dynamically.

Harry