Subject: Re: pre-asun2.1.4-39

From: Jürgen Weltzer <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:02:28 +0100

"I hear you load and clear! I'm quite frustrated with the development of
Netatalk as well. I would dearly love to use this program in an enterprise
situation along with Samba to replace one of our NT boxes with a Linux
box."

I   h a v e   done this, and I have many Problems with corrupted 
files (jpeg, PageMaker, Freehand - files). Advertising needs some 
Macs. Netatalk-admins, please help us users.

-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Jürgen Weltzer

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Werbeagentur Weltzer
Max-Eyth-Straße 8
71065 Sindelfingen
Tel. +49 (0) 70.31.81.32.31
Fax +49 (0) 70.31.81.16.01
http://www.w-ww.de/
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

---

From: Ryan McBeth <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 14:37:07 -0400

If it means anything, I just e-mailed Adrian.  I'll see what 
he says about his current involvement in Netatalk.

	The real question is if our community is big enough to 
support a samba-like project.

	The other big questions is if Netatalk is fast becoming 
irrelevant.  So far, nobody has yet to give me a straight answer on 
if Mac OSX can connect to linux / Unix machines via NFS.

	Ryan

>Macs. Netatalk-admins, please help us users.

__________________________________
Ryan McBeth
Systems Administrator, Mobius New Media
Voice: (302) 475-9880 x11
FAX: (302) 475-9894
www.mobiusnm.com
__________________________________
If you want to achieve excellence, you can get there today. As of 
this second, quit doing less-than-excellent work.
-Thomas Watson, founder of IBM

---

From: Jens Brambring <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 20:58:23 +0200

Ryan McBeth wrote:> 
> if Mac OSX can connect to linux / Unix machines via NFS.

Hello,
I think Netatalk will not become irrelevant very fast. I´ve got
many Macs, which will not be supported via Mac OSX. And I think,
there are many other Macs outside still needing AppleTalk.

Ciao, Jens

---

From: JAReD <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:04:46 -0400

>  > if Mac OSX can connect to linux / Unix machines via NFS.

I don't have DP4 but in one of the publicly available pdf's from 
Apple (sorry I don't have the link) it clearly stated that NFS WAS 
one of the supported file sharing protocols.

_jared

---

From: Aaron Faby <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:59:18 -0400

Yes it is indeed. I believe that Apple will be slowly phasing out AFP
support in favor of NFS. AFP support will only be there initially for
backwards compatibility.

Aaron

---

From: Ryan McBeth <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 18:54:48 -0400 (EDT)

Then I guess we have to decide if it is worth it.  Is it worth the
time or trouble to work on a protocol that may not be used in a year or
two?  Of course, there are plenty of schools that will still be using OS
8x and OS 9x.
	
	Still no word from Adrian.  I'm sure he's busy with things more
important than the gripes of an overworked SysAdmin.  But I'll let the
group know his answer to the question of a new version when I
know. 

	Ryan

---

From: Matthew Geier <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:55:25 +1000

> there are many other Macs outside still needing AppleTalk.

 We have 600 Macs that WONT be running OSX. Ever. They will slowly get
replaced yes, but old Mac have a habit of hanging around.

 And is NFS an answer ?. I cant just allow NFS access to our servers
from untrusted clients. Yes I can block UID0 access, but some one with a
little knowledge could access any one else's files, at least on my Linux
server. (I don't know the full capability of NFS3 on the DU box here).
 And OSX DP4 uses NetInfo in a distributed environment, not any of the
existing Unix protocols like NIS for example. Might be great using NFS
and Netinfo is a homogeneous environment, but who has one of those ?

-- 
Matthew Geier			[email-masked]
Arts IT Unit			+61 2 9351 4713
Sydney University

---

From: "Chris G. Sellers" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 21:11:59 -0400 (EDT)

Netatalk still is the solution if your main account system resided on
SystemV. (Solaris).  There is still questions on using /etc/passwd and
/etc/shadow across MacOS X

> > > one of the supported file sharing protocols.

<(/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\-/|\/-\|/-\|/-\|/|\-/|\-/|/-\|/|\-/|\-/|\/-\|/-\|/-\)>

   Sellers , Chris G.		
   Scientific Programmer Analyst 	
    Information & Instructional Technology 
    Oakland University - Rochester, Michigan 48309-4401	
    Phone: (248) 370.2016    FAX: (248) 370.4251

---

From: Aaron Faby <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 22:04:58 -0400

Mac OS X won't be using /etc/passwd or /etc/shadow at all. What Mac OS X
uses is called NetInfo, which similar to NIS. Pretty much everything on
the system is handled by NetInfo, included user accounts, system services
(including NFS), etc. Its actually quite a nice system, but without some
sort of firewall it is quite insecure.

Aaron Faby

---

From: Jürgen Weltzer <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:33:54 +0100

>one of the supported file sharing protocols.

Netatalk is not irrelevant!!!

I have 5 older Macs who'll need Apple Talk Support in future. Because 
I'm not Bill Gates I can't trash these Macs and buy some new ones.
It will be much cheaper to trash the Linux-box and take a NT-box to 
serve the Macs... Is this the way?????

Jürgen

-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Jürgen Weltzer

---

From: Hauke Fath <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 10:53:57 +0200

>if Mac OSX can connect to linux / Unix machines via NFS.

Having seen MacOS X DP4, let me just say that I don't expect MacOS 
"classic" clients go away all that soon...

OS X tramples all over many "classic" MacOS features that create the 
Macintosh User Experience.

See e.g. 
<http://www.arstechnica.com/reviews/2q00/macos-x-dp4/macos-x-dp4-1.html> 
.

	hauke

-- 
Hauke Fath                        Tangro Software Components GmbH
                                         D-69115 Heidelberg
[email-masked]                       Ruf +49-6221-13336-35, Fax -21

---

From: Howard Schultens <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 12:57:32 +0200

> I'm not Bill Gates I can't trash these Macs and buy some new ones.

Precisely!! A possible alternative to Netatalk will be MacOSX Server,
which we are testing right now.  Presently, there is no comparison
to Linux. MacOSX Server is missing many services and is completely
without
any of the comfortable utilities that Linux has.  Apart from the
core NetBSD it apparently tries to do a things with ideas
from NextStep and adds a proprietary parallel system of users,
groups, permissions, etc.  With Apple's resources and future
existence behind it, it may amount to something in a year or two --
but it aint there yet.

> serve the Macs... Is this the way?????

How can you say that?  The only way this can be cheaper is if you
have a cast-off NT system that you take over from someone else.
If you have to actually PAY for it, Linux only costs around
80 Marks in Germany (SuSE 6.4), has all the services that NT offers
and more, and will use your hardware more effectively.  You can actually
USE a Linux server for other work without the danger of it crashing.
Try to install anything on a running NT server:  90% of all
packages demand that you restart the system.  Forget it.  You can't
use it for anything but a server.

What I am saying is that the price of the NT software AND the
fact that you don't get to use the system for anything else
make the effective cost much higher than a Linux system.

I'm starting to preach.  I'll stop here and continue in
comp.os.linux.advocacy.

-- Howard

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Dipl.-Phys. H.Schultens     Tel: +49 551 39-5914
Zentrum Physiologie         FAX: +49 551 39-5923
Humboldtallee 23
37073 Goettingen       mailto:[email-masked]
Germany               http://www.neuro-physiol.med.uni-goettingen.de
--------------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: Jürgen Weltzer <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:21:50 +0100

>You can actually

I hope that I can make this :) but the Linux-box is damaging a lot of 
files from my macs (jpeg, Pagemaker, Freehand-files) :( I hope that 
someone works on this problem (please fast).

>use it for anything but a server.

I have a NT-box but it makes exactly this problems (and much more). 
Therefore I bought the Linux and I want to serve the macs with Linux. 
But Netatalk makes many problems for which nobody has a solution

Jürgen

---

From: Ray Zimmerman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 09:18:39 -0400

>make the effective cost much higher than a Linux system.

I think he was saying that if netatalk dies it would be cheaper to 
"upgrade" his server to NT to be able to keep serving his old Macs, 
than to upgrade the Macs to play nicely in a AppleTalk-less world.

	Ray

---

From: andrew morgan <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 06:42:18 -0700 (PDT)

> someone works on this problem (please fast).

Is this error repeatable?  Are you connecting to the server over Appletalk
or AppleShare IP?  If you've already mentioned this on the list, forgive
me.  I probably missed it in the noise...

	Andy

---

From: [email-masked] (Welle)
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 17:08:21 +0100

> "upgrade"

> his server to NT to be able to keep serving his old Macs,

Yes.
Jürgen

---

From: Jürgen Weltzer <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 17:02:53 +0100

>Is this error repeatable?

This error comes from time to time. Sometimes all files are well... 
and then one is damaged. I don't know why.
Someone mentioned it is a problem with the AppleDouble ressource 
forks. Or a problem of conversation.

>Are you connecting to the server over Appletalk
>or AppleShare IP?

Apple Talk

>If you've already mentioned this on the list, forgive
>me.

I do :)

I mentioned this. cause Linux works very good :) I dont want to go 
back to the NT.
But I'll be realy happy when the Aliases from the mac are working and 
my files are never damaged! :)
-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Jürgen Weltzer

---

From: Aaron Levitt <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 13:22:29 -0700

I have recently rolled out netatalk corporate wide and after a few initial glitches, seems to be running well.  I have no plans what-so-ever to add an OSX server and therefore would continue to use netatalk until we are no longer using Macs.  My company's base infrastructure is completely *nix (mostly AIX and Linux), with a couple mac servers, and that will most likely never change.  The use of netatalk has enabled us to migrate our older Mac servers to linux with little effect on the user community, saving tons of money in having to upgrade the mac servers, and also making life easier on the IS dept.  

I hope to see the development effort to continue and grow.  Not being much of a coder myself, I only have resources and a testing environment to offer, but I will be glad to help out where I can. Just my $.02. =)  

Also, one side note-

The latest version (in the subj) has eliminated the alias problem and AFAIK, has not damaged any files, graphics or otherwise.

At 5:02 PM +0100 7/20/00, Jürgen Weltzer is rumored to have said:

> I mentioned this. cause Linux works very good :) I dont want to go back to the NT.
> But I'll be realy happy when the Aliases from the mac are working and my files are never damaged! :)

-Aaron 
>>>>====--------====<<<<>>>>====--------====<<<<
Aaron Levitt		1616 Franklin Street
Systems Administrator	Oakland, CA  94612
Navis LLC		Tel:  510-763-5715
http://www.navis.com	Fax:  510-763-2516
>>>>====--------====<<<<>>>>====--------====<<<<

---

From: "Jonathan Newman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 20 Jul 2000 14:22:33 -0700

> Also, one side note-
>
> The latest version (in the subj) has eliminated the alias problem
> and AFAIK, has not damaged any files, graphics or otherwise.

I personally have seen issues with the DID hack for aliases.  Error messages
appear in the logs about directories mapping to the same ID, and the macs
trying to use those directories would have to be rebooted.  Not all that
pretty.  Your experience may be different.  There are a fixed number of bits
used for creating the IDs, and IIRC it is a combination of the device and
the inode.  If your inode values overflow the bitspace, you can have
multiple items mapping to the same ID.

It really is a kludge (IMO).  37 does not have the kludge, but it is also
lacking in the locking fixes/enhancements that are in 39.  I'm hoping to get
some time to roll the locking code from 39 into the "relatively kludgeless"
37.  Your experience may vary.

After a quick search, I _think_ this is the code in question.  The comment
is not mine, but actually in the asun code (etc/afpd/directory.h):

/* file/directory ids. what a mess. we scramble things in a vain attempt
 * to get something meaningful */
#ifndef AFS
#define CNID_XOR(a)  (((a) >> 16) ^ (a))
#define CNID_DEV(a)   ((((CNID_XOR(major((a)->st_dev)) & 0xf) << 3) | \
	(CNID_XOR(minor((a)->st_dev)) & 0x7)) << 24)
#define CNID_INODE(a) (((a)->st_ino ^ (((a)->st_ino & 0xff000000) >> 8)) \
				       & 0x00ffffff)
#define CNID_FILE(a)  (((a) & 0x1) << 31)
#define CNID(a,b)     (CNID_DEV(a) | CNID_INODE(a) | CNID_FILE(b))
#else
#define CNID(a,b)     (((a)->st_ino & 0x7fffffff) | CNID_FILE(b))
#endif

Jon Newman

---

From: Michael Bartosh <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2000 00:04:06 -0500 (CDT)

> existence behind it, it may amount to something in a year or two --

I am not sure what comfortable utilities you speak of. MacOS X Server is
very complete and NetInfo is completely open source and extensible
(publicsource.apple.com)

Typical FUD from gnu types.

-mab

---

From: Jürgen Weltzer <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 22 Jul 2000 12:43:26 +0100

>and AFAIK, has not damaged any files, graphics or otherwise.

Thanks for the information,
but:
1. I'm really a Newbee, not a programmer, but I want to serve my macs 
surely with Netatalk.

Question: on my linux box I have netatalk 14b2+asun 2.1.3-30 - where 
can I cet the working "upgrade" that does not damage my files? AND 
can I install this without the danger to damage my system? Cause I 
need the files on the server for my work:)
-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Jürgen Weltzer

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:40:42 -0700

> if Mac OSX can connect to linux / Unix machines via NFS.

I highly doubt that, since, even if Mac OS/X is released on time, it will be
a while before it is both usable and stable enough to replace current ASIP
installations. While Mac OS/X Server (a currently shipping pseudo-product)
does appear to do a good job at IP connectivity, I don't have any relevant
benchmarks in regards to performance.

Why would Mac OS/X not be able to connect via NFS - it's BSD based, so it
should have all the relevant nfs clients built-in.

How would that affect the usability or existence of netatalk?

Harry

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:42:39 -0700

> Macs. Netatalk-admins, please help us users.

I believe the issue of corrupted files has been brought up time and again,
yet never really been addressed, or acknowledged by anyone - unfortunately,
I have never experienced this issue myself, but itr is being brought up
often enough to warrant serious consideration.

Then again, the mantra-answer to the alias issue is always the same,
useless, "Don't use aliases"....

Harry

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:45:07 -0700

> two?  Of course, there are plenty of schools that will still be using OS

a) you just answered your own question - as many older Macs will still need
afp to access a file server.

b) netatalk is not just afp, but also (thanks to Adrian) the IP component,
which I find to be equally, if not more important - and I highly doubt that
IP connectivity will be obsolete any time real soon - even if Apple phases
out afp.

Harry

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:46:26 -0700

on 7/19/00 4:55 PM, Matthew Geier at [email-masked] wrote:

> And is NFS an answer ?.

Considering all the security I heard about it, I highly doubt it -
seriously, I think for the foreseeable future, IP is the way to go for
Macintosh connectivity - why does anyone think that nfs would be relevant?

Harry

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 10:54:58 -0700

on 7/20/00 1:33 AM, Jürgen Weltzer at [email-masked] wrote:

> It will be much cheaper to trash the Linux-box and take a NT-box to serve the
> Macs... Is this the way?????

You make a good point. At this point, NT has better support for appletalk,
and Win2000 has better IP support for Mac connectivity - while there are
talks that MS might discontinue AppleTalk support in future versions, I
believe they will keep IP support - this would be in keeping with Apple's
direction.

Seems that, once again, MS wins by mere implementation and stability (while
I am far from an MS fan, I do have to admit that their Mac support (and
patches/fixes) under NT has been admirable.

It is the very argument that I have been, fruitlessly, making on this list
before, particularly in regards to the alias issue. What the adherents to
the "Don't use Alias'" mantra don't seem to understand is that NT/2000 will
run on the same hardware that Linux will run, and while Linux is 'free', the
cost of installing the MS product ($150, at most) is easily offset by the
lesser amount of maintenance, feature-loss, and potential data loss.

The point is that certain aspects of netatalk *NEED* to be addressed before
it can be implemented in a real production environment (regardless of the
arguments of thos making a living setting up netatalk boxes with
limitations). These issues clearly are: alias support, data loss issue, and
stability.

Now, this is NOT to knock Adrian's work - he has done a TREMENDOUS job, and
without him netatalk would just be a marginalized and obsolete protocol
suite in eternal beta status. Furthermore, I fully understand that Cobalt is
paying Adrian real money for real work (that might or might not be netatalk
related), and thus Adrian's priorities lie with Cobalt - nothing wrong with
that. 

Nevertheless, netatalk still needs some minor work to be done before I can
feel safe deploying it safely in a real production environment.

Harry

---

From: andrew morgan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 19:30:37 -0700 (PDT)

> feel safe deploying it safely in a real production environment.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with you on this list.  But there
doesn't seem to be anyone willing to tackle these issues.  Adrian probably
knows the most about the netatalk code, but he seems to be occupied with
his paying job.  If no one else can contribute code or help debugging
these problems in a serious way, then we should forget about netatalk ever
being fixed.  Adrian has done great work, but this project cannot rest
solely on his shoulders.

I don't want to be an ass about this, but complaining about the problems
in netatalk will get us nowhere.  I would be happy to host any patches or
re-packaged releases of netatalk if that means we can get some work done.
I already provide some patches to papd at
http://web.orst.edu/~morgan/netatalk/
and I hope to have more patches available soon.

There have been some discussions about a future home for netatalk at
SourceForge or Suse (UMich people, can you comment further on this?).  I
could start the SourceForge site, but I'm not very familiar with their
services and I have no experience with CVS.

	Andy

---

From: andrew morgan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 19:36:48 -0700 (PDT)

> often enough to warrant serious consideration.

Are the files actually corrupted?  A while back a user reported that
anytime he tried to copy an EPS file to the server using ASIP, it would
disconnect.  If there is actual corruption of the files, what are the
circumstances?  Does it happen when the file is copied to or from the
server?  Is it repeatable?

I've had a possibly related problem with printing from Freehand.  If I try
to print in color a document with an embedded jpeg image through papd, the
job will be truncated somewhere in the middle of the binary code
representing the image, and always at the same spot.

Could this point to a problem with the underlying transport layer code in
netatalk?

I hope to debug this further as my time permits.

	Andy

---

From: Stephen Welker <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 13:32:57 +1000

On Sun, 23 Jul 2000 7:36 PM -0700 andrew morgan <[email-masked]> wrote:
>> I believe the issue of corrupted files has been brought up time and
>> again, yet never really been addressed, or acknowledged by anyone -
>> unfortunately, I have never experienced this issue myself, but itr is
>> being brought up often enough to warrant serious consideration.
>

Andy,

Did the problem go away after you applied the patches by Andras Kadinger to 
enable binary printing through papd?

-- 
Stephen Welker

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 23:41:41 -0400

> From:    andrew morgan <[email-masked]>
> To:      Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>

> services and I have no experience with CVS.

I haven't heard anything from the suse people in a while.  As you
stated, netatalk is in need of some 1) release engineering and 2) bug
fixes.  Both the asun and umich sources have been available a long time
-- the availability of the umich source is what allowed asun to make
changes available.

It doesn't seem like creating a netatalk SourceForge site will add
AppleTalk/Unix engineers.  If suse wants to contribute engineers, that
would be helpful.  If any one else wants to contribute his or her
talent, the netatalk community will respond as we have all witnessed on
this list.

:wes

---

From: andrew morgan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 21:02:56 -0700 (PDT)

> enable binary printing through papd?

Nope, I've been working with those patches plus my own authentication
patches since the beginning.  I have actually thought of going back to the
stock papd to see if the problem occurs there as well...

	Andy

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 23 Jul 2000 21:48:04 -0700

> make the effective cost much higher than a Linux system.

a) The cost of the NT software is only roughly $150 if you shop well. This
is not significant in the scope of things.

b) If you are a halfway decent administrator, you snould NOT use your server
for much of anything else than serving files.

Harry

---

From: Marcus Radich <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 17:11:33 +1200

>is not significant in the scope of things.

True enough, but you need *major firepower* to run NT at a decent 
speed. Talk about a GHz PC with 256MB of RAM just to boot!! 
<exaggerated, but not far wrong>. You are forgetting this cost.

>for much of anything else than serving files.

I guess this is one approach.
I can whack in a second enet card and use the same Linux install for 
Proxy, or Mail, or even a dev server for the Mac designers. I don't 
see ANY speed issues at all. Linux sits at 2-20% CPU serving several 
designers, and delivers up to 10MB/sec....
The NT approach? Get another server for Proxy, another for Web Dev, 
another for Exchange Server...boy, THIS adds up! I'd say you are up 
for a bit more than the quoted $150...

mrad01

========================================================

"Always ask the question, never assume the answer."
		Marcus Radich 1999

========================================================

---

From: Jürgen Weltzer <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:04:39 +0100

>for a bit more than the quoted $150...

O.K., boy: the "remake" of only one damaged file (for example: 1 day 
to work) costs $ 400 (+ the trouble with the clients)... What is 
cheaper???

And the "dont use Aliases" Mantra ... If you have importet 150 
pictures from many different subfolders ... and you have every day 
you work on that file to reimport these files, cause netatalk can't 
remember the subfolders ... do you find this realy a joke? Or make a 
new Mantra: "dont use subfolders" or don't import any files in a 
pagemaker-document???.

I post the question: After this discussion, have I to serve the macs 
with the NT-box, and use the Linux-box for the funny things like 
e-mail, web-server etc.?

(nobody told me from the netatalk bugs -before- buying Suse Linux. 
Most of people said that linux works much better than NT... Yes, it 
works, it is fast, you have not to make a restart every friday ... 
but you lost your work cause the files are damaged. Up to this time, 
I have not realy fun with the pinguin.)
-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Jürgen Weltzer

---

From: Jürgen Weltzer <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:16:25 +0100

>server?  Is it repeatable?

The files are corrupted by:
1. saving it (applikations: XPress, PageMaker, Freehand)
2. copying it to the server
3. copying it from the server
but all errors occure only from time to time.

>representing the image, and always at the same spot.

I found out, that freehand (7 and 8) has problems with the handling 
of jpegs. I use eps or tiff-files for the work in freehand and I have 
no problems with printing the files.
-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Jürgen Weltzer

---

From: Stephen Welker <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 18:56:12 +1000

--On Monday, 24 July 2000 10:16 AM +0100 Jürgen Weltzer 
<[email-masked]> wrote:

>> I've had a possibly related problem with printing from Freehand.  If I
>> try to print in color a document with an embedded jpeg image through
>> papd, the job will be truncated somewhere in the middle of the binary
>> code representing the image, and always at the same spot.
>
> I found out, that freehand (7 and 8) has problems with the handling of
> jpegs. I use eps or tiff-files for the work in freehand and I have no
> problems with printing the files.

Also one has to be carefull if you are using Ghostscript as the PostScript 
intepreter. Ghostscript has to be built using special libraries to handle 
Adobe's custom handling of JPEG images in a PostScript file. More 
information can be found in the Ghostscript build instructions.

This may or may not be the problem.

-- 
Stephen Welker

---

From: Stephen Welker <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 19:05:41 +1000

> but all errors occure only from time to time.

Sounds like...

(1) resource fork corruption (file permissions on .AppleDouble dirs),
(2) corruption caused by line feed translation,
(3) some other configuration error.

More info needed.

Please supply at a minimum to the list...

(1) Server platform & OS version.
(2) Netatalk version.
(3) Workstation OS & version.
(4) Current netatalk config settings.
(5) Log file output (/var/log/messages or similar).
(6) Customisations performed by the installer.

Supplying this information will help all of us to help you.

Netatalk is a very reliable server. I constantly use server volumes with 
more than 10,000 (ten thousand) files without problems. The netatalk 
version in use is: netatalk-1.4b2+asun2.1.4-39_test on NetBSD/i386 1.4.1.

-- 
Stephen Welker

---

From: Marcus Radich <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 21:11:29 +1200

>I have not realy fun with the pinguin.)

Oh dear, you have a configuration problem.

I have a business which looks after several RedHat 6.1/netatalk 
214/37b servers. They are all used in a production environment, one 
of which is used by an award winning design company serving over 25 
designers. 2 years ago, we upgraded that customer from WinNT 4 (due 
to stability issues AND LOTS OF DAMAGED DOCUMENTS from NT going down. 
Now, this client is VERY happy, and puts up with the small niggle 
which is the alias thing. They use Quark, so it is not an issue when 
it comes to linking. Freehand is the only bugbear for them. We have 
all their workstations on MacOS 8.1 for pre G3 machines (with 
Appleshare client 3.8.3), or MacOS 9.0.4 for G3/G4s(with Appleshare 
Client 3.8.6)
I suggest you review your configuration, as we have found 
netatalk214/37b runs VERY well on over 20 Servers nationwide (in 
different customer sites). We have used it for over 3 years, and have 
not got any major problems with it (apart from aliases - which is not 
fatal)

mrad01

---

From: Sak Wathanasin <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 10:55:26 +0100

In reply to Jürgen Weltzer's message of the 24/07/2000 at 10:16 +0100,

>but all errors occure only from time to time.

There's no general problem storing PM or FH files on an netatalk 
server. We do it all the time. Have you eliminated the possibility of 
a CR/LF translation problem? Open your 
.../atalk/etc/AppleVolumes.system or AppleVolumes.default and look 
for a line that says

# default translation -- note that CR <-> LF translation is done on all TEXT

If it says

.   TEXT    ????

change it to read

.   DATA    ????

(Need to restart the afp server). Or better still, recompile netatalk 
with CR/LF translations off. Read "man afpd" for details.

-- 
Sak Wathanasin
Network Analysis Limited
178 Wainbody Ave South, Coventry CV3 6BX, UK

Internet: [email-masked]
Phone: (+44) 24 76 41 99 96        Mobile: (+44) 79 70 75 19 12 
Fax: (+44) 24 76 69 06 90

---

From: Jürgen Weltzer <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 14:44:43 +0100

>(1) resource fork corruption (file permissions on .AppleDouble dirs),

file permission is made for all directories (include AppleDouble) 
with "chmod -R 775 /my/directory

>(1) Server platform & OS version.

Intel PentiumII, Suse Linux 6.3

>(2) Netatalk version.

14b2 + asun 2.1.3-30

>(3) Workstation OS & version.

G3, OS 8.5.1, Appeleshare 3.8.1
Power Book 5300cs, OS 7.5.5 Rev.2, Appleshare 3.6.1
PPC 8100, OS 8.5.1, Appleshare 3.8.1
PPC 7100, OS 7.5.3 update 2.0, Appleshare 3.6.1
PPC 7100, OS 8.0, Appleshare 3.7.1

>(4) Current netatalk config settings.

AppleVolumes.default:
# This file looks empty when viewed with "vi".  In fact, there is one
# '~', so users with no AppleVolumes file in their home directory get
# their home directory by default.
#
# volume format:
# path [name] [casefold=x] [codepage=y] [options=z,l,j] \
#   [access=a,@b,c,d] [dbpath=path] [password=p]
#
#
# casefold options:
# tolower    -> lowercases names in both directions
# toupper    -> uppercases names in both directions
# xlatelower -> client sees lowercase, server sees uppercase
# xlateupper -> client sees uppercase, server sees lowercase
#
# access format:
# user1,@group,user2  -> restricts volume to listed users/groups
#
# miscellaneous options
# prodos              -> make compatible with appleII clients.
# crlf                -> enable crlf translation for TEXT files.
# noadouble           -> don't create .AppleDouble unless a resource
#                        fork needs to be created.
#
# codepage=filename   -> load filename from nls directory.
# dbpath=path         -> store the database stuff in the following path.
# password=password   -> set a volume password (8 characters max)
#
#
~ Home "Linux-Home"
/usr/gemeinsames_Verzeichnis "Linux-Server"
/usr/e-mail-Anhang "e-mail-Anhang"
/usr/ISDN-Empfang "ISDN-Empfang"

AppleVolumes.system
#
# This file is read before (after if -u is specified) the user's
# AppleVolume file.  Add extension mappings and volumes here.
#
# default translation -- note that CR <-> LF translation is done on all
# files of type TEXT.  The first line turns off translation for files of
# unknown type, the second turns this translation on.
#.       BINA    UNIX
# .       TEXT    UNIX
# Ÿnderung lt. Vorschlag aus Mailliste
.	TEXT	R*ch	ASCII Text
# sounds
.mod	STrk	STrk
.mid	Midi	ttxt
.aiff	AIFF	SNdm
.wav	WAVE	SNdm
.au	ULAW	SNdm

# video
.moov	MooV	mMPG
.mov	MooV	mMPG
.mpg	MPEG	mMPG
.mpeg	MPEG	mMPG

# formatted text
# zum Testen deaktiviert 6.7.2000
#.html	TEXT	MOS!
#.rtf	TEXT	MSWD
#.doc	WDBN	MSWD
#.pdf	CARO	PDF
#.pm6	PM6	ALB6
#.p65	PM65	AB65
#.ps	ps	ps
#.fh7	fh7	AGD2
#.eps	eps	EPSF
#.qxd	qxd	XDOC

# compressed archives
.bin	BINA	MB2P
.zip	ZIP	ZIP
.tar	TARF	TAR!
.gz	Gzip	Gzip
.Z	ZIVM	LZIV
.sea	????	SITx
.cpt	PACT	CPCT
.sit	SIT!	SIT!
.hqx	TEXT	SITx

# graphics
.tiff	TIFF	JVWR
.tif	TIFF	JVWR
.bmp	BMPp	JVWR
.pct	PICT	ttxt
.pict	PICT	ttxt
.jpeg	JPEG	JVWR
.jpg	JPEG	JVWR
.gif	GIFf	JVWR

>(5) Log file output (/var/log/messages or similar).

from today:
Jul 24 00:00:00 linux /USR/SBIN/CRON[13590]: (root) CMD ( rm -f 
/var/cron/lastrun/cron.daily) Jul 24 00:00:02 linux su: (to nobody) 
root on none Jul 24 00:19:32 linux -- MARK -- Jul 24 00:39:32 linux 
-- MARK -- Jul 24 00:59:32 linux -- MARK -- Jul 24 01:19:32 linux -- 
MARK -- Jul 24 01:39:32 linux -- MARK -- Jul 24 01:59:32 linux -- 
MARK -- Jul 24 02:19:32 linux -- MARK -- Jul 24 02:39:32 linux -- 
MARK -- Jul 24 02:59:32 linux -- MARK -- Jul 24 03:19:32 linux -- 
MARK -- Jul 24 03:39:32 linux -- MARK -- Jul 24 03:59:32 linux -- 
MARK -- Jul 24 04:19:32 linux -- MARK -- Jul 24 04:39:32 linux -- 
MARK -- Jul 24 04:59:32 linux -- MARK -- Jul 24 05:19:32 linux -- 
MARK -- Jul 24 05:39:32 linux -- MARK -- Jul 24 05:59:32 linux -- 
MARK -- Jul 24 06:19:32 linux -- MARK -- Jul 24 06:39:32 linux -- 
MARK -- Jul 24 06:59:32 linux -- MARK -- Jul 24 07:19:32 linux -- 
MARK -- Jul 24 07:39:32 linux -- MARK -- Jul 24 07:59:32 linux -- 
MARK -- Jul 24 08:07:41 linux afpd[14558]: session from 41201.248:250 
on 65280.85:129 Jul 24 08:07:41 linux PAM-warn[14558]: service: 
netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 08:07:41 linux PAM-warn[14558]: 
user: (uid=0) -> Laslo [remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:07:41 
linux PAM-warn[14558]: service: netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 
08:07:41 linux PAM-warn[14558]: user: (uid=0) -> Laslo [remote: 
?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:07:41 linux PAM-warn[14558]: service: 
netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 08:07:41 linux PAM-warn[14558]: 
user: (uid=0) -> Laslo [remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:07:41 
linux afpd[14558]: login Laslo (uid 501, gid 100) Jul 24 08:10:11 
linux afpd[14559]: session from 65280.115:250 on 65280.85:130 Jul 24 
08:10:11 linux PAM-warn[14559]: service: netatalk [on terminal: afpd] 
Jul 24 08:10:11 linux PAM-warn[14559]: user: (uid=0) -> Welle 
[remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:10:11 linux PAM-warn[14559]: 
service: netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 08:10:11 linux 
PAM-warn[14559]: user: (uid=0) -> Welle [remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] 
Jul 24 08:10:11 linux PAM-warn[14559]: service: netatalk [on 
terminal: afpd] Jul 24 08:10:11 linux PAM-warn[14559]: user: (uid=0) 
-> Welle [remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:10:11 linux 
afpd[14559]: login Welle (uid 502, gid 100) Jul 24 08:10:38 linux 
afpd[14560]: session from 65280.1:250 on 65280.85:131 Jul 24 08:10:38 
linux PAM-warn[14560]: service: netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 
08:10:38 linux PAM-warn[14560]: user: (uid=0) -> Laptop [remote: 
?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:10:38 linux PAM-warn[14560]: service: 
netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 08:10:38 linux PAM-warn[14560]: 
user: (uid=0) -> Laptop [remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:10:38 
linux PAM-warn[14560]: service: netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 
08:10:38 linux PAM-warn[14560]: user: (uid=0) -> Laptop [remote: 
?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:10:38 linux afpd[14560]: login Laptop 
(uid 504, gid 100) Jul 24 08:23:55 linux PAM-warn[14558]: service: 
netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 08:23:55 linux PAM-warn[14558]: 
user: (uid=0) -> Laslo [remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:23:55 
linux afpd[14558]: done Jul 24 08:23:55 linux afpd[170]: 
server_child[0] 14558 done Jul 24 08:26:08 linux afpd[14585]: session 
from 41201.248:250 on 65280.85:129 Jul 24 08:26:08 linux 
PAM-warn[14585]: service: netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 
08:26:08 linux PAM-warn[14585]: user: (uid=0) -> Laslo [remote: 
?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:26:08 linux PAM-warn[14585]: service: 
netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 08:26:08 linux PAM-warn[14585]: 
user: (uid=0) -> Laslo [remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:26:08 
linux PAM-warn[14585]: service: netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 
08:26:08 linux PAM-warn[14585]: user: (uid=0) -> Laslo [remote: 
?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:26:08 linux afpd[14585]: login Laslo (uid 
501, gid 100) Jul 24 08:27:08 linux PAM-warn[14585]: service: 
netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 08:27:08 linux PAM-warn[14585]: 
user: (uid=0) -> Laslo [remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:27:08 
linux afpd[14585]: done Jul 24 08:27:08 linux afpd[170]: 
server_child[0] 14585 done Jul 24 08:28:42 linux afpd[14586]: session 
from 41201.248:250 on 65280.85:129 Jul 24 08:28:42 linux 
PAM-warn[14586]: service: netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 
08:28:42 linux PAM-warn[14586]: user: (uid=0) -> Laslo [remote: 
?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:28:42 linux PAM-warn[14586]: service: 
netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 08:28:42 linux PAM-warn[14586]: 
user: (uid=0) -> Laslo [remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:28:42 
linux PAM-warn[14586]: service: netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 
08:28:42 linux PAM-warn[14586]: user: (uid=0) -> Laslo [remote: 
?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:28:42 linux afpd[14586]: login Laslo (uid 
501, gid 100) Jul 24 08:29:41 linux PAM-warn[14586]: service: 
netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 08:29:41 linux PAM-warn[14586]: 
user: (uid=0) -> Laslo [remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:29:41 
linux afpd[14586]: done Jul 24 08:29:41 linux afpd[170]: 
server_child[0] 14586 done Jul 24 08:32:03 linux afpd[14609]: session 
from 41201.248:250 on 65280.85:129 Jul 24 08:32:03 linux 
PAM-warn[14609]: service: netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 
08:32:03 linux PAM-warn[14609]: user: (uid=0) -> Laslo [remote: 
?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:32:03 linux PAM-warn[14609]: service: 
netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 08:32:03 linux PAM-warn[14609]: 
user: (uid=0) -> Laslo [remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:32:03 
linux PAM-warn[14609]: service: netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 
08:32:03 linux PAM-warn[14609]: user: (uid=0) -> Laslo [remote: 
?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:32:03 linux afpd[14609]: login Laslo (uid 
501, gid 100) Jul 24 08:34:25 linux afpd[14610]: session from 
41201.248:250 on 65280.85:132 Jul 24 08:34:25 linux PAM-warn[14610]: 
service: netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 08:34:25 linux 
PAM-warn[14610]: user: (uid=0) -> Laslo [remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] 
Jul 24 08:34:25 linux PAM-warn[14610]: service: netatalk [on 
terminal: afpd] Jul 24 08:34:25 linux PAM-warn[14610]: user: (uid=0) 
-> Laslo [remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:34:25 linux 
PAM-warn[14610]: service: netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 
08:34:25 linux PAM-warn[14610]: user: (uid=0) -> Laslo [remote: 
?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:34:25 linux afpd[14610]: login Laslo (uid 
501, gid 100) Jul 24 08:35:38 linux afpd[170]: asp_alrm: 14609 timed 
out Jul 24 08:35:48 linux afpd[14609]: atp_rresp: Connection timed 
out Jul 24 08:35:58 linux afpd[14609]: afp_die: asp_shutdown: 
Connection timed out Jul 24 08:35:58 linux PAM-warn[14609]: service: 
netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 08:35:58 linux PAM-warn[14609]: 
user: (uid=0) -> Laslo [remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 08:35:58 
linux afpd[14609]: 12.98KB read, 1826.14KB written Jul 24 08:35:58 
linux afpd[170]: server_child[0] 14609 done Jul 24 08:59:32 linux -- 
MARK -- Jul 24 09:19:32 linux -- MARK -- Jul 24 09:20:17 linux 
afpd[14681]: session from 41201.173:250 on 65280.85:129 Jul 24 
09:20:17 linux PAM-warn[14681]: service: netatalk [on terminal: afpd] 
Jul 24 09:20:17 linux PAM-warn[14681]: user: (uid=0) -> Welle 
[remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 09:20:17 linux PAM-warn[14681]: 
service: netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 09:20:17 linux 
PAM-warn[14681]: user: (uid=0) -> Welle [remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] 
Jul 24 09:20:17 linux PAM-warn[14681]: service: netatalk [on 
terminal: afpd] Jul 24 09:20:17 linux PAM-warn[14681]: user: (uid=0) 
-> Welle [remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 09:20:17 linux 
afpd[14681]: login Welle (uid 502, gid 100) Jul 24 09:39:32 linux -- 
MARK -- Jul 24 09:59:32 linux -- MARK -- Jul 24 10:05:13 linux 
afpd[14750]: session from 65280.253:250 on 65280.85:133 Jul 24 
10:05:13 linux PAM-warn[14750]: service: netatalk [on terminal: afpd] 
Jul 24 10:05:13 linux PAM-warn[14750]: user: (uid=0) -> Birgit 
[remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 10:05:13 linux PAM-warn[14750]: 
service: netatalk [on terminal: afpd] Jul 24 10:05:13 linux 
PAM-warn[14750]: user: (uid=0) -> Birgit [remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] 
Jul 24 10:05:13 linux PAM-warn[14750]: service: netatalk [on 
terminal: afpd] Jul 24 10:05:13 linux PAM-warn[14750]: user: (uid=0) 
-> Birgit [remote: ?nobody@?nowhere] Jul 24 10:05:13 linux 
afpd[14750]: login Birgit (uid 503, gid 100) Jul 24 10:19:32 linux -- 
MARK -- Jul 24 10:39:32 linux -- MARK -- Jul 24 10:59:32 linux -- 
MARK -- Jul 24 11:19:32 linux -- MARK -- Jul 24 11:39:32 linux -- 
MARK -- Jul 24 11:59:32 linux -- MARK -- Jul 24 12:19:32 linux -- 
MARK -- Jul 24 12:39:32 linux -- MARK -- Jul 24 12:59:32 linux -- 
MARK --

>(6) Customisations performed by the installer.

I'm really a Newbee, I've installed it myself...

>Netatalk is a very reliable server. I constantly use server volumes 
>with more than 10,000 (ten thousand) files without problems.

Oh, this are very good news.
-- 
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Jürgen Weltzer

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:25:52 -0700

> <exaggerated, but not far wrong>. You are forgetting this cost.

I have some installations that are running 30 Macs off a 133 MHz Pentium box
and it's providing decent speed under AppleTalk (corporate client of mine
that won't touch anything but NT, unfortunately - we're working to migrate
that installation to an ASIP server, though).

Furthermore, I have buddies running Win2000 on 300MHz boxes, and using them
as servers, proxy boxes, and other tasks simultaneously.

Like I said, I am *NOT* a friend of Microsoft products, but at least I don't
senselessly make up 'requirements' that are not true (Mind you, there still
are plenty of problems with Win products, but their AppleTalk support is not
one of them)

Furthermore, most installations nowadays use equipment better than a 386
(meaning that most new, CHEAP PCs run at 400MHz and better, which is plenty
for a server).

> for a bit more than the quoted $150...

I could argue likewise by creating situations that require extra hardware
that Linux can't provide - I'm talking realistic situations -- and these
involve the use of dedicated servers for workgroups, since proxy servers are
already present in the installation.

Besides, if you are making the argument for a dev server, THOSE I would run
on Linux boxes only, but THOSE *CAN* run on 486 boxes without any hassles...

Even If I did have to purchase a separate box just for appletalk serving,
I'd rather spend an extra $600 on a PC, and $150 on the software, instead of
sitting around having to worry that my artist's data might get lost or
corrupted, or having to send support personel to explain, over and over, why
alias' don't work. 5-6 support calls, and you're starting to exceed the cost
of the extra hardware...

Of course, a semi-elegant alternative would be to run SAMBA on the Linux
box, and to install a utility like DAVE on the Macs - which allows you to
see and use SMB shares on the Mac. Not extremely elegant, because it
installs NetBUI on the Macs, but decent solution as well.

Harry

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:32:59 -0700

on 7/24/00 2:11 AM, Marcus Radich at [email-masked] wrote:

> (apart from aliases - which is not
> fatal)

Like I said - "Go back to Mantra#1 - repeat if necessary"

> new Mantra: "dont use subfolders" or don't import any files in a

The point is, while YOU may believe in not using aliases, and while your
clients are accepting this gaffe, not everyone works that way, or is willing
to accept such limitations.

ASIP is good alternative - and while it costs more, it does not provide any
such limitations.

Harry

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 08:38:16 -0700

> I have not realy fun with the pinguin.)

Now, seriously, *LINUX* will work much better than NT on almost ALL fronts,
with the exception of the appletalk/IP support, in which case the aliases
are broken, and the software is in beta. Now, in all fairness, I *DO* use
netatalk in my home office environmnet on various test servers, and I have
never encountered data loss, as it is described by yourself, or others.

This leads me to believe that this could be a configuration issue, or it
could have something to do with running it under SUSE (not sure about that).
Have you installed the RPM version, or have you compiled and installed it
yourself from the latest version?

As an alternative, you might want to consider running SAMBA and installing
DAVE on the Macs - which allows them to access SMB shares natively.

Harry

---

From: Richard Crane <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 11:48:45 -0400

unsubscribe

---

From: "Marc J. Miller" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 24 Jul 2000 12:33:46 -0700

Two words in favor of netatalk and CAP:  open source.  If we need to figure
out why something is acting the way it is, we can look at the source code
and even modify it ourselves to get the desired behavior.  We (my
department) feel we simply can't trust Microsoft to help us with something
that could be a Mac issue or could be a server issue.  MS will likely leave
us to figure it out on our own if they think it might be a problem with
MacOS.

---

From: Russell Harmon <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 00:08:27 -0700

>>but all errors occure only from time to time.

FWIW, we were having real problems with this, but turning off the 
byte-range locking code (-DUSE_FLOCK_LOCKS in the makefile) fixed it. 
Quark files would get a corrupted resource fork frequently enough to 
be a problem if the person working on them saved the file directly to 
the server.