Subject: WEBMIN DEVEL BOARD UP

From: Steve Freitas <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 10:51:18 -0700

Okay, it's up. If you know Perl and you'd like to contribute to the 
development of the Netatalk webmin module, please go here:

http://sourceforge.net/forum/?group_id=8642

Thanks!

Steve

---

From: BWS - Offwhite <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:49:51 -0500 (CDT)

I cannot log into Sourceforge because I am using IE5 on the Mac.  It is
the most standards compliant browser around and I cannot use it.

Does that mean I am forced to use an old browser which tends to crash?

Brennan Stehling - web developer and sys admin
projects: www.greasydaemon.com | www.onmilwaukee.com | www.sncalumni.com

---

From: Matthew Keller <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:07:14 -0400

> the most standards compliant browser around and I cannot use it.

	*ROTFLMAO* You *lol* just *lol* said *lol* that *lol* IE *lol* is *lol*
"the most" *lol* "standards compliant" *lol* *lol* *lol* *LMAO* Ok i'm
better now. Comedy Central could use you.

> Does that mean I am forced to use an old browser which tends to crash?

	Opera, Mozilla, Netscape, Lynx, Gzilla, KFM all see it fine.

-- 

 Matthew Keller
 Lead Programmer/Analyst
 Distributed Computing/Telemedia
 Information Services Division
 State University of New York at Potsdam
 
 Website: http://mattwork.potsdam.edu/
 PGP: http://mattwork.potsdam.edu/crypto/
 Webcam:  http://webcam.mattwork.potsdam.edu:85/

---

From: BWS - Offwhite <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 14:22:22 -0500 (CDT)

I do not want to use Netscape until Mozilla does not crash.  And I do not
want to use Netscape 4.7 because it has issues and tends to crash.

And IE5 really is very standards compliant.  If you have seen it you would
have to agree.  It does style sheets properly along with just about
everything in the HTML 4.0 spec.  I really like how it handles
Javascript... i.e. It works correctly.

Netscape 4.7 cannot do half what IE5 for the Mac can do, and I do not like
that fact, but it is true.  WaSP praised MS for creating such a complete
browser, then blasted it for such a poor browser in IE 5.5 for Win32.

The Mac team did such a good job with the Mac browser that they were
dissolved.  MS did not like that the PC version was garbage by comparison.

So there I am, stucking using one of the only good MS products and now
Sourceforge tells me I cannot log into their site with it.

---

From: Matthew Keller <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:43:57 -0400

> Javascript... i.e. It works correctly.

	I have extensively used IE5.5 Mac (along with all other modern browsers
that run on Mac, Linux and Windows), and can tell you that it is NOT
"very standards compliant", unless you want to equate industry standards
with "Microsoft Standards". Any "cool features" that you happen to like
are NOT in spec, even though some of them are REALLY SPIFFY.

> If Netscape 4.7 was this nice, there wouldn't be a problem with them 
> losing market share.

	If Netscape 4.7 was included on 80% of PC's (PC = "Mac and Windows") by
default, they wouldn't be losing marketshare either.
	
	I will admit that Netscape has been lacking as of late. Netscape 5 has
been vaporware for so long that they've decided to call it "6", "steal"
Mozilla instead of building it themselves (thank you, AOL), and 4.7
isn't all that well when you talk about standard either.

	Anyhow, which browser is better is moot- IE does NOT handle some 128bit
SSL certs properly *BY THEIR OWN ADMITTANCE* so your inability to use
SourceForge is the fault of your browser. Microsoft's KB is littered
with technotes about this problem.

-- 

 Matthew Keller
 Lead Programmer/Analyst

---

From: Matthew Keller <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:47:37 -0400

> with technotes about this problem.

	For the record, I just logged in with IE5.5 on the Mac to SourceForge.
My next GET request crashed the MAc... I logged in again with ther "Stay
in SSL mode" box UNchecked, and am using SourceForge just fine.

-- 

 Matthew Keller
 Lead Programmer/Analyst

---

From: Matthew Keller <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 15:55:50 -0400

> in SSL mode" box UNchecked, and am using SourceForge just fine.

	Scratch the '.5' ... Mistype.
-- 

 Matthew Keller
 Lead Programmer/Analyst

---

From: Brian Reid <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 12:57:18 -0700

> the most standards compliant browser around and I cannot use it.

I bet you also believe in the tooth fairy.

There is nothing standards-compliant about IE5. There are some
good things to be said about it, but that's not one of them.

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:37:00 -0700

> better now. Comedy Central could use you.

Okay, I think it's time for another lesson in etiquette, particularly in how
to respond to questions deserving an honest, and thoughtful answer.

I'm no friend of MS, or their shoddy products, but unfortunately on the
Mcintosh, their IE product is far better than many of the alternatives,
including Netscape. Netscape crashes regularly, does not support
stylesheets, or the latest WWW standards as completely as MSIE 5 for the
Mac, and is quite slow.

In this case, on the Mac, it *IS* the most stable, and most used browser
right now. Laughing at the user for pointing out that he can't get to the
sourceforge site doesn't really help that particular person ONE SINGLE BIT.

And, before you start correcting me that you have provided a plathora of

> Opera, Mozilla, Netscape, Lynx, Gzilla, KFM all see it fine.

Would you mind telling me which one of these work on the Macintosh, which
this particular user *IS* using? Mozilla might, if you want to deal with a
product that crashes even more heavily than Netscape's, but none of the
others work at all on that platform - or did you overlook the user clearly
stating that he was on a Mac?

BWS< I suggest giving iCab a try - albeit also not a finished product, it
might at least allow you to get into sourceforge by supporting the security
certificate - otherwise, you'd need to use Netscape for that task - I do,
and while a hassle, it at least lets me get in.

My suggestion, let's write to the sourceforge admins and ask exactly WHY it
doesn't support MSIE, albeit I have a suspicion it has to do with them
usinga home-brewn certificate, which MSIE doesn't recognize (and Netscape
has the brains to allow you to let it learn).

There *IS* some way to make it work, by making MSIE accept and download a
new certificate, but I can't find the reference to that work-around any
more.

Anyone else have any idea how to force MSIE/Mac to accept new certificates?

Harry
-- 
CAN'T SEE MAC IN CHOOSER UNDER RedHat 6.2: If you get errors starting
AppleTalk under RedHat 6.2 and Mandrake 7.1, you need to manually add "alias
net-pf-5 appletalk" to your /etc/conf.modules file.

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:43:52 -0700

> with technotes about this problem.

Microsoft's knowledge base also contains a solution to this issue (which I'm
now trying to find) since there *IS* a work-around, so instead of engaging
in ideological browser bashing, how about we all apply ourselves to fidning
the solution, which *DOES* exist.

Harry

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:45:48 -0700

> in SSL mode" box UNchecked, and am using SourceForge just fine.

That's the problem - I tried the same, and I keep getting a 'Data Decryption
Error' message, but no crashes - I just can't get past those.

Harry

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 13:48:51 -0700

> good things to be said about it, but that's not one of them.

PLEASE!!!!! Could we skip a replay of the friggin' browser wars? Wether you
like it or not, people will use MSIE (heck, I use it because it's far more
stable than Netscape, and actually supports printing a web-page), and no
amount of you blasting or downgrading people because of it will change that.

The user asked a legitimate question, and has a legitimate problem - which
part of your answer provided a solution?

Harry

---

From: DAve <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 18:37:13 -0700

MSIE 5.0 has many known issues, we have attempted to contact MS about some of them which are causing us to NOT reccomend it as supported with our web-app. Forms useage is one of the issues. I have had very good luck using Netscape 4.72 on the Mac but you must get a version from ftp.netscape.com. The automagicly downloaded version and all bundled versions (iMac, G4, etc) seem very crash happy to me.

I just tried my copy of Netscape at source forge and it worked fine, has been online all day without fail testing Javascript here in the development lab. If you like I can send you my installer tommorrow when I'm back in the office.

DAve.

[email-masked]

And BWS - Offwhite said....

-- 
"On the Plains of Hesitation bleach the bones of countless millions who, at
 the Dawn of Victory, sat down to wait, and waiting -- died"

---

From: Matthew Keller <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 09:06:24 -0400

> sourceforge site doesn't really help that particular person ONE SINGLE BIT.

	I never argued (or laughed at) with "stable" or "most used", I laughed
at "standards compliant". 

Duly spanked and forever repentant, 
-- 

 Matthew Keller
 Lead Programmer/Analyst

---

From: Chip Mefford <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 11 Aug 2000 10:43:16 -0400

>stylesheets, or the latest WWW standards as completely as MSIE 5 for the

Everything you say, from the etiquette issue right up though
the netscape stability point is completely in line with my
weak understanding of these issues.

However, when I get to the "latest WWW standards" part, I kinda
loose it. I know that Netscape doesn't support a lot of the latest
MSIE 5.0 specific code, or 4.5 for that matter, or ActiveX or a lot
of other MS specific code, but for pure www compliance, the Netscape,
or iPlanet, or whatever the product is called now, is certainly no
saint but it seems to be in much closer compliance to open www standards
than anything microsoft has ever done or will ever do.

Yes, MSIE 5.0 on the Mac is heads and shoulders above any other Mac
browser, it's really very nice. But compliant? hardly.

--------------------------------------
I labour to posses my soul

            -Izaak Walton
--------------------------------------

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 23:15:26 -0700

Been running pre-39 now for a few weeks, and so far have had no problems
with alias', or data loss (knock on wood).

One thing I *HAVE* noticed is that a chooser initiated connection will
invariably default to slow AppleTalk connectivity. I need to proceed with
manual IP selection in order to get the faster IP connection.

Alias' made of an IP connection do reconnect as IP connections, but 'mount
automatically' does NOT properly remember the state of the last connection.

Is there a work-around, or can this be addressed in some other way?

Also, speaking of icons from a prior thread - It might be worth considering
having two separate icons to denote IP and non-IP connections visually. Just
make the IP connection the new icon with the small globe, and a non-IP
connection the icon without the globe. Doable?

Harry

---

From: Marcus Radich <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 18:41:11 +1200

>manual IP selection in order to get the faster IP connection.

That is weird, I installed a new Netfinity server last week at a 
client site, and all machines mount the Server IP at startup. Best to 
check your configuration, I have a had that happen to me before, and 
it was the hostname not being set properly. I called the machine 
'hellokitty', but didn't set up a domain. I used a dummy domain 
'.enet.local' to give me 'hellokitty.enet.local'. That fixed it.

>automatically' does NOT properly remember the state of the last connection.

It does. Check above.

>connection the icon without the globe. Doable?

If you use MacOS 8.6 and above, the icon has a globe for IP 
connections and no globe for appletalk. This has been in for a while 
now.

Have fun

mrad01
-- 
========================================================

"Always ask the question, never assume the answer."
		Marcus Radich 1999

========================================================

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 10:01:05 -0700

> connections and no globe for appletalk. This has been in for a while

See, *THIS* is where it gets weird, as that is what I thought I recalled
about the prior versions I ran.

In this case, it mounts the volume at startup, or if you chooser-select it,
with the IP icon, but a 'Get Info' clearly shows that only an AppleTalk
connection is present.

Again, this is using pre-39, and specifically the RPM created by JeffB.

Harry

---

From: Reed Loefgren <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 12:02:18 -0600

> Again, this is using pre-39, and specifically the RPM created by JeffB.

Hi all,

This is EXACTLY what I'm seeing; Command-I says connected via Appletalk,
and believe me, the speeds I'm getting seem to bear this out. TCP-IP is
Active (load when needed is NOT selected, but it doesn't seem to
matter,) and I'm using Netatalk-blah-blah.3-7.
  I get the globe if I login to my Linux account, but the Mac data is
stored as user "macdata," and I've pasted in the icon for a shared
folder in place of the wired globe. It automounts fine and persistes
through re-boots, but it's soooo slow, with outright stalls of several
seconds during copys of more than a couple MBs or so.

Reed
-- 

The promise of the Machine Age was
to increase Leisure, not Productivity.

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:53:30 -0700

> and believe me, the speeds I'm getting seem to bear this out. TCP-IP is

SO, at the very least there is an issue with assigning the proper icon in
pre-39 (at least), as well as whatever Reed is using.

I'll check the DNS issue (I know I'm not running a DNS'd box in my
mini-network where this is being tested), so I'll see if the errors go away
once I make this box resolve itself properly.
Harry
-- 
CAN'T SEE MAC IN CHOOSER UNDER RedHat 6.2: If you get errors starting
AppleTalk under RedHat 6.2 and Mandrake 7.1, you need to manually add "alias
net-pf-5 appletalk" to your /etc/conf.modules file.

---

From: a sun <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 11:59:21 -0700

make sure that tcp/ip is started up always on the client. in addition,
make sure that your hostname resolves to the proper ip address. if
your hostname resolves to another ip address, netatalk will pass you
the wrong info.

been there. done that. it should already be in pre39. if not, it's
probably in my dev tree.

-a

---

From: Reed Loefgren <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 13:41:07 -0600

> pre-39 (at least), as well as whatever Reed is using.

	Reed is using this (verbatim):

	netatalk-1.4b2+asun2.1.3-7.ppc.rpm
thanks,

Reed

--

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 13:32:57 -0700

> been there. done that. it should already be in pre39. if not, it's

Weird thing is that it ALWAYS displays the IP-correct icon, even if just
establishing a ddp connection only. Weird.

Hey, good to see your presence in here again.

Harry

---

From: Reed Loefgren <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 20:52:43 -0600

Harry,

I've sorta solved my problem. Here's a rather lengthy synopsis of what
works for me (but it isn't a perfect world, and I use MacOS/bootX. Don't
know what the deal would be with OF booting):

Appletalk control panel set to: Connect via Ethernet.
TCP-IP control panel set to: Connect via Ethernet.
Configure: set to Manually.
Use 802.3 was checked because I could, not because I know what it does.
(I have since unchecked this.)
IP address set to 192.168.1.2 (the same address I use when my box is
booted into Linux.)
Subnet mask left blank to force it to the default for the IP address (it
would be 255.255.255.0, I think.)
For Name server addr. I just put the IP address of my server (a stab,
that.)
  Close the window to save the settings and bring up the chooser. If I
click on the Appletalk icon I get the server's name, just the name and
not the fqdn. If I click on the Server IP Address button and key in the
server's IP address the barber pole runs forever. I then cancel and
select the server's name from the box, click on the OK button and after
a short wait the connect box comes up.
  I accept the username and password remaining from the last connection,
hit the Connect button, then the OK button and I have...an Appletalk
connection. So it does fall back to Appletalk when using the chooser to
connect.
  A re-boot brings it up as a TCP-IP connection (nice!) only if, in the
TCP/IP control panel, the TCP connection sub-window is "Active" and the
"load when needed" option is UNCHECKED. But then I can't dial out to my
ISP via modem. I have to go back into the TCP control panel and change
Connect via: to PPP. This stinks. You'd think MacOS could keep track of
two different protocols on two entirely different physical connections
(ethernet port for the network connection, and the modem port for, well,
the modem. (Linux 1, MacOS 0.))
  So that was the logjam in my case: because the Ethernet data was
entered I was thinking that MacOS could/would use them, so I went and
set "Connect via:" to ppp because that is what my modem needed to work.
This actually killed the TCP connection to the server and it
consistantly, quietly fell back to appletalk. That stinks too.
  I would imagine I can get my ISP's data entered in somewhere so that I
might keep the Ethernet connection and not blow out my PPP connection,
but I'm taking a rest from this one.
  Thanks to everyone who keeps posting their on-going problems with
this; it helped me get off my duff and keep playing with things. And I
hope this information helps someone with their headache. I'm open to
further questions to clarify the above.

Reed

--

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 21:24:08 -0700

on 8/14/00 7:52 PM, Reed Loefgren at [email-masked] wrote:

> works for me

Well, same here - I ended up adding the box to the /etc/hosts file, and also
made sure to use the -ipaddr and -port directive in the afpd.conf file to
set those appropriately.

Works like a charm now.

Harry

---

From: Matthew Geier <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 14:55:52 +1000

Marcus Radich wrote:
> client site, and all machines mount the Server IP at startup.

 Ive had the same problem, automounting on 8.6 made an AppleTalk
connection. In our case, making 'keyserver' use TCP/IP instead of
AppleTalk fixed it.
 The machines concerned use DHCP for addressing, I assume the automount
driver doesn't wait long enough for the IP stack to initialize. By
forcing keyserver to use TCP/IP, it made the stack load befor the
automount function wanted it I assume.

 I know when an AppleTalk connection is made, with out fail, less than 5
minutes later, the connection is dropped. 8.6 and later only make stable
connections over TCP/IP for me. AppleTalk connections ALWAYS drop out.
Os 7.x machine connect via AppleTalk fine. Ive tested this on a number
of different machines. All the same. 

-- 
Matthew Geier			[email-masked]
Arts IT Unit			+61 2 9351 4713
Sydney University

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:49:10 -0700

on 8/14/00 9:55 PM, Matthew Geier at [email-masked] wrote:

> In our case, making 'keyserver' use TCP/IP instead of
> AppleTalk fixed it.

You can also uncheck the 'Load Only When Needed' box in the TCP/IP options
panel.

> of different machines. All the same.

Yeah, interesting, but I think we established a while back that this has to
do with a conflicting tickle interval between client and host - QUERY: Can
this be addressed in netatalk, specifically when we're ready to package up a
usable version?

Harry

---

From: Matthew Geier <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 17:43:55 +1000

> You can also uncheck the 'Load Only When Needed' box in the TCP/IP options

 Done that as a matter of course. I think all that does is stop it from
unloading, it still appears to 'demand load' the first time IP is
needed....

 Making the keyserver control to use TCP seems to force the issue before
the automount happens. You see the delay when booting as well, the line
of icons appearing stops at the keyserve one for a few seconds.

---

From: Franz Dürr <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 11:44:04 +0200

Hi Reed,

I had the same problem too.. couldn't figure out how to connect over
Ethernet and PPP at the same time. Humble me, I accounted this to my poor
Mac knowledge, as I couldn't imagine MacOS to be so primitive in that way.
Seems, I was too humble..
The solution was obvious, though: Use the linux box as gateway to the ISP
using ip masquerading,
 so that only an Ethernet connection is used any more. I used static ip
addresses on the Macs, entered them all in the linux server's /etc/hosts and
wrote a stone-ax-like DNS-proxy. It acts as name server for the Macs with
/etc/hosts as 'name database' and forwards non-local queries to the ISP's
name server. You can, of course, install  the bind name server package as
well, but I thought it to be overkill for a 4 client network. If you enter a
name server adress in the Mac's TCP/IP - configuration without a name server
running on that address, I think you're inviting trouble.. (e.g. delays when
the Macs are waiting for an answer from the nonexisting name server).
Anyway, thats what has worked for me for about 2 years. If you have any
questions about my configuration, feel free to ask..

Franz

Von: "Reed Loefgren" <[email-masked]>
An: "Harry Zink/Netatalk List" <[email-masked]>
Cc: "Marcus Radich" <[email-masked]>; <[email-masked]>
Gesendet: Dienstag, 15. August 2000 04:52
Betreff: Re: ddp/tcp connections (pre-39): For Me, Sorta Solved...

>.......

---

From: rgp systems <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 10:44:59 -0400

You can also use IPNetRouter on the Mac side.

-- 
Randy Perry
rgp systems

Mac Consulting/Sales

---

From: Harry Zink/Netatalk List <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 10:15:29 -0700

Here's an interesting one. A client of mine who *IS* using a netatalk server
with pre-39 (jeffb's RPM) happens to want to access their data both within
their office (private network) and from their homes. The office is fed with
a DSL line, and they have several dedicated IPs.

I originally set up the system so as to place the server outside the private
network (on a switch before the router), and have the local clients connect
to it via direct IP connections - DNS was set up correctly, so their volumes
would be mounted at startup.

Well, what ensued was essentially a stability nightmare, as every
workstation would drop their connection within minutes. After fiddling, to
no avail, with the tickleval, I finally switched them back to their internal
network, and the connection remained rock-steady.

Now, and here's the question:

* Any idea as to why this difference in stability, or how to work around it?

* The server has two NICs in it, so theoretically I could run one connection
to the internal network, and one to the outside world. Just setting up
netatalk in the atalkd.conf file with eth0 and eth1 doesn't work, since it
still doesn't negotiate properly for multiple interfaces. What's the trick
to making multiple simultaneously active interfaces work on different
networks?

Harry