Subject: [netatalk-admins] atalk for Digital Unix 4.0

From: Craig A Summerhill <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 10:38:16 -0500 (EST)

Dear netatalk gurus,

If this is a frequently asked question, I'd like to know because I
haven't been able to find the answer anywhere...  Thanks in advance
for any assistance you can provide.

A couple of years ago, we replaced most of the functions on a 
DEC 5000/200 Ultrix box with an Alpha running Digital Unix.  It is 
currently running Digital Unix 4.0b.  I would like to phase out the 
Ultrix machine entirely, but I have not been able to find an 
AppleShare implementation for Digital Unix.

   - Many moons ago, we licensed a software product for Ultrix called 
     PacerShare/PacerPrint.  Pacer is now out of business.

   - I have inquired with a few folks about netatalk, but have yet 
     to find anybody who has even attempted to do the kernel 
     modifications which I understand would be required to port it 
     to Digital Unix. 

Does anybody know of a product (commercial or otherwise) which will
allow me to run Apple file services on a Digital Unix Alpha?  Has 
anybody on this list attempted to port netatalk to Digital Unix?
-- 

   Craig A. Summerhill, Systems Coordinator and Program Officer
   Coalition for Networked Information
   21 Dupont Circle, N.W., Washington, D.C.   20036
   Internet: [email-masked]   AT&Tnet (202) 296-5098

---

From: Stefan Bethke <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:11:13 +0100

Craig A Summerhill <[email-masked]> wrote:

> allow me to run Apple file services on a Digital Unix Alpha?

HELIOS Software (http://www.helios.com/) offers EtherShare for most
RISC-based Unices, including Digital Unix 4.

Stefan

--
Stefan Bethke
Promo Datentechnik      |  Tel. +49-40-851744-18
+ Systemberatung GmbH   |  Fax. +49-40-851744-44
Eduardstrasse 46-48     |  e-mail: [email-masked]
D-20257 Hamburg         |  http://www.Promo.DE/

---

From: Matthew Temple <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 11:01:01 -0500 (EST)

I sent this question out quite a while ago and never got anywhere.
The only non-commercial product I know if is CAP.

http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/appletalk/atalk.html

We've been using it for a number of years -- supports printing, IP, etc.
We've had some weirdness with multi-user databases, though.    Directory
structure is similar to, but not identical to, netatalk.    I have the
impression that it's not being developed as regularly as netatalk, but it
runs quickly enough

Matthew Temple                                  Tel:  617/432-7696
HHMI / HMS Genetics Computing                   Fax:  617/432-7663
Harvard Medical School
200 Longwood Avenue, Boston, MA 02115           [email-masked]
==========================================================================

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From: "David Hjortsø" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 17:19:02 +0100

They are also going to offer it for Linux shortly (look on
freshmeat/helios.de)

Regards,
	David.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On Behalf Of
> Stefan Bethke
> Sent: Tuesday, March 23, 1999 5:11 PM
> To: Craig A Summerhill
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: [netatalk-admins] atalk for Digital Unix 4.0
>
>

---

From: "Jeremy J. Reichman" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 15:37:48 -0500

Having run through this same process but not reached any conclusion,
yet, I'll offer my thoughts:

-	There's not a whole lot available. There are packages for almost any
other flavor of UNIX, but few for OSF1/Digital UNIX/Compaq Tru64 UNIX
(whatever you want to call it these days).

-	HELIOS' EtherShare seems to be the frontrunner, IMHO. It's commercial
and the main drawback (from my tech support department's point of view)
is its requirement of a kernel module. This requirement may only be
necessary for AppleTalk, not AFP over TCP/IP, based on speculation
related to other products.

-	There is no Digital UNIX port of netatalk, and I haven't looked into
CAP much (again because of my tech support department).

-	Even EtherShare may have problems integrating with samba; the
recommendation seems to be to use EtherShare for both Mac and Windows
file sharing (there's a companion Windows server product).

-	I haven't seen much info about netatalk integrating with samba.

-	There is a samba port for Digital UNIX, as I understand. (Thus, our
tech support is pushing us to use DAVE for our Macs. Not a trivial
installation, maintenance, or training task.)

-	I've "suggested" (much more strongly than that) that Apple include SMB
networking with future system releases since testing Mac OS 7.6. Of
course, in the upcoming Mac OS X era, this may be a moot point -- Mac OS
X will probably support a port samba for the client access side.

-	EtherShare is aimed at the prepress crowd, although some universities
apparently run it. There's no specific support for some popular things
in higher ed, like DCE authentication.

-	My university would love to have a netatalk port for Digital UNIX.

-- 
Jeremy J. Reichman
Interim HelpDesk Manager of Operations
ISC HelpDesk
Information and Technology Services
Rochester Institute of Technology
Rochester, New York, USA

Voice                       (716) 475-HELP (4357)
TTY                         (716) 475-2810
Fax                         (716) 475-5306
World Wide Web              <http://www.rit.edu/~jjracc/>
Electronic mail             <mailto:[email-masked]>

For computer-related questions at RIT, make the ISC HelpDesk your first
point of contact; it's available by:
-   voice at (716) 475-HELP (4357)
-   TTY at (716) 475-2810
-   electronic mail to "[email-masked]"
-   World Wide Web at <http://www.rit.edu/isc/>
-   walk-up in the Frank E. Gannett Bldg
    (Room 1113, right off the main lobby).

---

From: Craig A Summerhill <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 16:40:22 -0500 (EST)

> yet, I'll offer my thoughts:

Sounds like we're on the same page...

> -	HELIOS' EtherShare seems to be the frontrunner, IMHO.  It's 
> commercial and the main drawback (from my tech support department's 
> point of view) is its requirement of a kernel module. This requirement 
> may only be necessary for AppleTalk, not AFP over TCP/IP, based on 
> speculation related to other products.

For me, the main drawback is price.  I find $2900 for a 20 user license
a tad on the expensive side...

Kernel modules don't bother me too much.  Both Ultrix 4.3a + and Digital
Unix 4.0a + seem to come configured by default with the only real option
that matters for EtherShare or CAP (option PACKETFILTERS).  Unless I am 
missing something, they both should work out of the box with either OS...
Anyway, I've built many a kernel in my day...

The problem I have with CAP is all the damn patches.  I think that 
is a really stupid way to distribute an open source package if you want 
people to really use it.  I can do the patching and hacking, its just 
all the work involved...  The main problem I've run into thus far is 
the patch binary which ships with Digital Unix.  I haven't figured 
out the syntax there yet...

> -	I haven't seen much info about netatalk integrating with samba.

We run the Samba/netatalk combo on our Linux servers, and that seems to 
work fine for all parties involved.  File transfers are a heck of a 
lot slower with Samba though.

> -	There is a samba port for Digital UNIX, as I understand. (Thus, 
> our tech support is pushing us to use DAVE for our Macs. Not a trivial

I have samba compiled on the Digital Unix Alpha.  We tried Dave, and I 
have to say it really sucked.  Transfers were miserably slow, and the 
Dave Control Panel was constantly screwing with other applications in 
terms of spinning up the Mac's hard disk.  We ran into one application 
where there was a fairly significant conflict (I think it was RetroSpect,
if I recall correctly).

> -	I've "suggested" (much more strongly than that) that Apple include 
> SMB networking with future system releases since testing Mac OS 7.6. Of

Yeah, I am thinking about just buying a big G3 and Mac OS X.  For the 
price of the Helios EtherShare license, I would just about break even...

Nevertheless, I hate to be an early adopter in the Apple camp.

> -	My university would love to have a netatalk port for Digital UNIX.

Ditto.
--

---

From: Stefan Bethke <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 11:47:55 +0100

> related to other products.

IMHO, having a kernel module for AppleTalk is more sane.  If your only
concern is AFP-over-TCP, you should be able to compile Adrians afpd (it
seems to have some hooks in it to throw out all AppleTalk-related stuff).
afpd runs fine even if you don't have AppleTalk in the kernel.

EtherShare won't work without it's kernel module. Due to technical problems
in the kernel module implementation in Digital Unix, Helios chose to use
the old-fashioned way of rebuilding the kernel. The installer takes care of
this for you (but you can do it yourself if you want to).

> file sharing (there's a companion Windows server product).

EtherShare (as well as IPT's uShare) implement fixed file id's.  Because
Mac clients usually reference files on the volume by their file id (or dir
id + filename), a database keeps track of id->path relations.  Obviously,
this database must be kept in sync with the actual file system contents.
If you move or rename files "behind the back" of the file server, the
database gets out of sync, and "funny" things start happening. Helios
provides a number of replacement command line utilities for mv, cp, et al.
that know how to deal with these data.

Unfortunatly, for these reasons, you can't run Samba on an EtherShare
volume without risking serious problems.  Helios has announced PCShare 3,
which will be a SMB server tightly integrated with EtherShare (and the
prepress products).

> -	I haven't seen much info about netatalk integrating with samba.

Works flawlessly. I didn't dare to enably fixed dirid support in
netatalk+asun yet, but I expect similiar problems if the id database gets
out of sync with the actual file system contents.

> installation, maintenance, or training task.)

Quite simply: don't do it.

> X will probably support a port samba for the client access side.

While Mac OS X might include a SMB client sometime (heck, you'll probably
can already run smbclient), file id's seem to be here to stay. Rumor has it
that Apple might even nuke UFS as soon as HFS+ support is feature complete
and stable. So using Mac OS X *as a client* to a SMB server probably won't
work better than with Mac OS 8, if the programs continue to use file ids.

> -	My university would love to have a netatalk port for Digital UNIX.

Shouldn't be too hard for someone having the right tools. Both a 4.4BSD and
a STREAM kernel module are available (for *BSD and Solaris, resp.)

Alternatively, throw out Digital Unix and use Linux or *BSD on your Alphas
:-)

Stefan

---

From: a sun <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 13:47:02 -0800 (PST)

the appletalk parts of netatalk need some kernel code to work. i
believe systems like Digital Unix allow for STREAMS modules. so, if
you're interested in getting it running under Digital Unix, you'll
need to port the Solaris STREAMS driver. i'm more than happy to accept
patches to netatalk that get appletalk support working on other
systems.

in the future, i plan to create an "unknown" platform that just
compiles afpd with AFP/tcp support to help ease things along. 

-a

---

From: Bob Krzaczek <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 1999 17:52:57 -0500 (EST)

Just to confirm...

After some quick hacking, I currently have a TCP-only version of afpd
compiled and running on a Digital Unix platform (4.0D), based on
asun2.1.3, built with native tools. It's not really tested yet, but it
*does* work. I want to redo some of the changes before I send the patches
out (there are some ugly #ifdef's in there... ;-)

Drop me a quick mail message, and I'll put you on a list that I'll use
when I've got a patch set to distribute.

// bob

On Tue, 23 Mar 1999, a sun wrote:
; the appletalk parts of netatalk need some kernel code to work. i
; believe systems like Digital Unix allow for STREAMS modules. so, if
; you're interested in getting it running under Digital Unix, you'll
; need to port the Solaris STREAMS driver. i'm more than happy to accept
; patches to netatalk that get appletalk support working on other
; systems.
; 
; in the future, i plan to create an "unknown" platform that just
; compiles afpd with AFP/tcp support to help ease things along. 

-- 
// Bob Krzaczek, RIT Center for Imaging Science, <[email-masked]>