Subject: [netatalk-admins] AppleShare on IP

From: Jonas Blomberg <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:48:37 +0100

Greetings!

Now that the client side of AppleShare on IP has been available from Apple
for quite some time, supporting MacOS versions from 7.5.3 onwards (if I am
not mistaken), isn't it time to consider simply scrapping all the AppleTalk
support in netatalk? I know that this may sound a bit provocative, but I
would guess that only a very tiny portion of Macs actually connected to
netatalk servers is unable to run the necessary Appleshare client software.

I am not familiar with the innards of netatalk, but am I right in guessing
that a sizable part of the complexity of netatalk stems from supporting
appletalk in various ways, including modifying the various unix kernels.

Using Laserwriter 8.5.1 (which I think can run on MacOS 7.0 and later), we
can also forego AppleTalk when printing. Isn't support for AppleTalk style
printing also a respectable chunk of netatalk software?

So what I asking is: If one would rip out ALL AppleTalk support from
netatalk and concentrate on AppleShare over IP, wouldn't we get a leaner,
meaner, better product, without really losing anything?

I don't know enough about netatalk to make this an actual suggestion, but
isn't it a relevant question?

/Jonas

---
Jonas Blomberg ([email-masked])
Technology Nexus Secure Open Systems AB, Box 857
751 08 Uppsala, SWEDEN, +46-18-171800

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From: Rob Newberry <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:03:02 -0500 (EST)

While I think it might be a useful compile-time option to disable
AppleTalk support, I believe you are quite wrong in your assumptions.

A lot of the client Macintoshes that connect to netatalk servers are
probably in universities.  As such, they're probably NOT running OS 8, and
they're probably NOT running an AFP/TCP-capable client.

As to printing, again, most clients probably are NOT using LaserWriter
8.5.1, and probably won't be for a while -- some never will.

Finally, many netatalk users use the printing portion in the reverse
situation -- as a client to print to AppleTalk printers.  Lots of folks
have old LaserWriters that only speak AppleTalk on their networks --
netatalk allows a UNIX server to print to those machines which DON'T speak
LPR.

While I'm glad Apple's latest clients are moving towards IP, it will be a
LONG time before the majority of users are capable of using those
services alone.

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From: Jonathan Peterson <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:21:36 +0000

Sorry to be ignorant about this, but the AppleTalk vs IP thing confuses me.

If I have clients running OS8, and the latest asun version of Netatalk,
will I be using the fast or slow version of AppleTalk by default??

If modern Macs use TCP/IP, can I remove AppleTalk from my kernel and avoid
the current restarting problems (as well as saving some memory)?

Thanks,

--------
Jon Peterson	[email-masked]	+44 (0)171 613 5300
Internet Developer

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

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From: a sun <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 10:29:47 -0800 (PST)

you get switched to tcp/ip by default. you can change that by using
the appleshare client setup program if you want.

well, afpd will start even if appletalk is not running. however, you
really should fix your restarting problems by updating your kernel as
appletalk provides chooser services which are quite
convenient. finally, the netatalk suite and appletalk take up very
little memory, so i doubt that should ever really be a concern.

-a

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From: Andrew McNabb <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 18:26:38 -0600

As far as I know, there are two big problems.  One is the fact that only a
minority of systems use IP.

The second is that I thought that the old-style Appletalk was necessary to
do create the list of available servers.

> 751 08 Uppsala, SWEDEN, +46-18-171800

----------------------------------------------
                Andrew McNabb
             Argus Systems Group
          [email-masked]
----------------------------------------------
  I am an International Arms Trafficker!!!!!
http://online.offshore.com.ai/arms-trafficker/
----------------------------------------------

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From: David Foster <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 01:27:44 -0500

>the appleshare client setup program if you want.

Slight correction to that, I'm pretty sure standard OS8 will connect with
AppleTalk by default, OS 8.1 (which you should upgrade to if you've got
OS8) will connect via tcp/ip by default.  tcp/ip is also the default if you
upgraded the ATalk client on an OS8 machine.

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From: Laurent PELLISSIER <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:11:21 +0100

>netatalk servers is unable to run the necessary Appleshare client software.

	Maybe I'm wrong but it seems that with the chooser of MacOS 8, if
you want to connect to an IP AFP server you have to enter its address
instead of choosing it in the proposed list as we do with AppleTalk based
AFP. This is far from being user friendly for almost all of my users, even
if we can make an alias of the server later and drop it on the desk. Happy
spring !

Laurent PELLISSIER @ Ecole des Mines d'Ales

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From: Jonas Blomberg <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:32:07 +0100

>8.5.1, and probably won't be for a while -- some never will.

You're quite right of course (although a AFP/TCP client doesn't require
OS8, but maybe thats not what you said). The fact that users theoretically
can get and use a thing doesn't mean that they will. In a corporate
environment, it is probably easier (or at least more common :-) to impose
certain requirements on desktop computers.

>netatalk allows a UNIX server to print to those machines which DON'T speak

Can't argue with that.

>LONG time before the majority of users are capable of using those

Also, as has been mentioned, services based on IP don't make themselves
known as conveniently as AppleTalk services in the chooser.

But still, just out of curiosity, IF one ripped out EVERYTHING except
AppleShare over IP, how much would remain in terms of code size or
compile-time platform-dependent #ifdefs or whatever measure is relevant?

/Jonas

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From: Alistair Riddell <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 1998 19:38:25 +0000 (GMT)

If you are using AppleShare client 3.7 or newer and TCP-IP is enabled and
the server you connect to claims to support AFP over TCP then the client
will try to use AFP over TCP. If that fails then it will revert to
AppleTalk.
MacOS8 comes with version 3.7.2 and 8.1 uses 3.7.4.

--
Alistair Riddell - BOFH
IT Support Department, George Watson's College, Edinburgh
Tel: +44 131 447 7931 Ext 176       Fax: +44 131 452 8594